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Raiders Del Rio out, Gruden in?
#21
(01-04-2018, 11:48 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:47 AM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:36 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:26 AM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 05:26 PM)NOLA Wrote: I think maybe you're missing my very broad point in minutiae here.  Gruden is good with quarterbacks, and Gannon made him look good enough for another team to trade for him.  I similarly think Brees has helped Payton's reputation, while Payton has padded Drew's stats.  I think I'm pretty on record as being pro Brees.  The only QB I'll even entertain arguments about possibly being better than Brees is Brady.  I'm a pretty good Brees homer that way.

It's my gimmick.  

Gruden seems to work well with moderately talented veterans.  Guys like Johnson, Garcia, and Gannon.  I think all of those guys were 10+  years in when Gruden started coaching them and all were very professional.   Like Steve Mariucci, Gruden seems to have an aversion to developing young QB's.  I'm not convinced he's perfect for Carr, who clearly needs some work.  

I wouldn't say your opinion of Brees makes you a homer.  I'm not a Saints fan, and I agree with it.  

I guess it's just perspective.  I see Gannon as a guy who could never have accomplished what he did as he did without Gruden and that team which seemed tailor made for Gannon's skill set.  I see Brees as a guy who's gonna make any coach look like a genius.  Not to throw shade at Payton.  I do think he's the top offensive mind in football today, even if I hate how he uses running backs.

I think that I must have a higher opinion of Gannon than you.  Maybe I was just young at the time, but I remember thinking very highly of his accuracy and his ability to scramble.  I felt like he was a legit Pro Bowler, and the only reason he doesn't have a ring is because he was playing against a team coached by his former head coach and a guy who new him and his playbook so well that it really seems like it should've been against some kind of rule for it to even happen.  But it happened to the Raiders, so... funny.

Nice.  Brees is so underappreciated by football fans in my opinion.  I can't believe it.  He wasn't at his peak for long (and he's looking very mortal these days, I'm afraid), but when he was he did things I've never seen from any other quarterback in terms of accuracy and ability to hit receivers downfield and in stride.  It was like watching a video game.  He was Peyton Manning with a more sophisticated OS.

Re: the bolded part: Ok, I'll bite.  How so?  I have a lot of thoughts on this subject myself.

I'm just not a fan of the committee approach.  I'm a fan of featuring a complete back, and Payton seems committed to always having a specific type of duel backfield.  

To be reductive, it's a power back / speed back type of approach and the speed back rarely gets the bulk of the carries, even when they're the better back.  

That's to say nothing of it's effectiveness.  Payton got 3000 yards out of the RB position this year.  So... yeah.  Obviously he knows what he's doing.

Sometimes?

Payton has been frustratingly Andy Reid-like when it comes run/pass ratio the bulk of his time here, which has been a source of frustration.  The 2009 Championship year was Drew Brees' lowest yardage in his tenure here, and the only time the Saints had a true 50/50 run/pass until this year when somehow he finally got back to it.  That baffles me.

As for your point... I dunno if I have strong feelings on this.  When Payton got here, he was excited by the new toy that was Reggie Bush, and had no interest in playing Deuce McAllister, who was a fucking awesome power back.  And Deuce kept forcing his way into games and was really the difference maker for that 2006 team that made it to the NFC Championship.  I think Payton appreciated the value of that and has tried to replicate it since then, but he's really not a natural when it comes to figuring out who to deploy when, as you allude to.

On the other hand... yeah, this year is a strong rebuttal to everything we've said.

(As an aside, I think his best running back (or at least best-utilized) so far has been Pierre Thomas, who was undrafted, had a relatively short career, but was pretty much always on the field, and was great out of the back field, and flat-out amazing at setting up screen plays.  He always got about 9-yard more than it looked like was possible.)

I think the crown of 'best RB of Payton's tenure' has a new head to rest on.  

Kamara is fucking awesome.  If he stays healthy, he's a superstar.
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#22
Sproles will always wear that crown.


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#23
CJ Spiller has to be high on that list, right NOLA?
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#24
(01-04-2018, 07:46 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 11:48 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:47 AM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:36 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:26 AM)The_Jonas Wrote: It's my gimmick.  

Gruden seems to work well with moderately talented veterans.  Guys like Johnson, Garcia, and Gannon.  I think all of those guys were 10+  years in when Gruden started coaching them and all were very professional.   Like Steve Mariucci, Gruden seems to have an aversion to developing young QB's.  I'm not convinced he's perfect for Carr, who clearly needs some work.  

I wouldn't say your opinion of Brees makes you a homer.  I'm not a Saints fan, and I agree with it.  

I guess it's just perspective.  I see Gannon as a guy who could never have accomplished what he did as he did without Gruden and that team which seemed tailor made for Gannon's skill set.  I see Brees as a guy who's gonna make any coach look like a genius.  Not to throw shade at Payton.  I do think he's the top offensive mind in football today, even if I hate how he uses running backs.

I think that I must have a higher opinion of Gannon than you.  Maybe I was just young at the time, but I remember thinking very highly of his accuracy and his ability to scramble.  I felt like he was a legit Pro Bowler, and the only reason he doesn't have a ring is because he was playing against a team coached by his former head coach and a guy who new him and his playbook so well that it really seems like it should've been against some kind of rule for it to even happen.  But it happened to the Raiders, so... funny.

Nice.  Brees is so underappreciated by football fans in my opinion.  I can't believe it.  He wasn't at his peak for long (and he's looking very mortal these days, I'm afraid), but when he was he did things I've never seen from any other quarterback in terms of accuracy and ability to hit receivers downfield and in stride.  It was like watching a video game.  He was Peyton Manning with a more sophisticated OS.

Re: the bolded part: Ok, I'll bite.  How so?  I have a lot of thoughts on this subject myself.

I'm just not a fan of the committee approach.  I'm a fan of featuring a complete back, and Payton seems committed to always having a specific type of duel backfield.  

To be reductive, it's a power back / speed back type of approach and the speed back rarely gets the bulk of the carries, even when they're the better back.  

That's to say nothing of it's effectiveness.  Payton got 3000 yards out of the RB position this year.  So... yeah.  Obviously he knows what he's doing.

Sometimes?

Payton has been frustratingly Andy Reid-like when it comes run/pass ratio the bulk of his time here, which has been a source of frustration.  The 2009 Championship year was Drew Brees' lowest yardage in his tenure here, and the only time the Saints had a true 50/50 run/pass until this year when somehow he finally got back to it.  That baffles me.

As for your point... I dunno if I have strong feelings on this.  When Payton got here, he was excited by the new toy that was Reggie Bush, and had no interest in playing Deuce McAllister, who was a fucking awesome power back.  And Deuce kept forcing his way into games and was really the difference maker for that 2006 team that made it to the NFC Championship.  I think Payton appreciated the value of that and has tried to replicate it since then, but he's really not a natural when it comes to figuring out who to deploy when, as you allude to.

On the other hand... yeah, this year is a strong rebuttal to everything we've said.

(As an aside, I think his best running back (or at least best-utilized) so far has been Pierre Thomas, who was undrafted, had a relatively short career, but was pretty much always on the field, and was great out of the back field, and flat-out amazing at setting up screen plays.  He always got about 9-yard more than it looked like was possible.)

I think the crown of 'best RB of Payton's tenure' has a new head to rest on.  

Kamara is fucking awesome.  If he stays healthy, he's a superstar.

Kamara is fucking awesome, and will be a star for a while, I hope.  If we're just going by the "Holy Shit" metric, Reggie is still my favorite.  He was really a feast-or-famine player, but he did amazing things.  What I was trying to say about Pierre was that he was as close as Payton ever got to having an every-down back, and he was great at it.  He was the only time there was just one guy.
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#25
(01-04-2018, 08:21 PM)DallasChief Wrote: Sproles will always wear that crown.


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Reggie Who?

(I still have a 43 jersey tshirt that says that... it's awesome.)
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#26
(01-04-2018, 09:04 PM)tyecopeland Wrote: CJ Spiller has to be high on that list, right NOLA?

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#27
I guess it's official, and the Raiders overpaid the ever-loving shit out of Gruden. Reportedly it's a 10 year, $100 million deal.

https://www.silverandblackpride.com/2018...fl-history

That's just plain dumb. I would be PISSED if I were a Raiders fan.

This is a man the Bucs didn't think could coach anymore years ago, and the Raiders are already in the Vegas mindset letting it all ride on black that he'll be good. Mark Davis wasn't flush with cash before the move to Vegas, so I'm guessing this is most of his Vegas cash going straight to the coach and there's a damn good chance it won't pay off.
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#28
(01-05-2018, 03:25 PM)asskickingboots Wrote: I guess it's official, and the Raiders overpaid the ever-loving shit out of Gruden. Reportedly it's a 10 year, $100 million deal.

https://www.silverandblackpride.com/2018...fl-history

That's just plain dumb. I would be PISSED if I were a Raiders fan.

This is a man the Bucs didn't think could coach anymore years ago, and the Raiders are already in the Vegas mindset letting it all ride on black that he'll be good. Mark Davis wasn't flush with cash before the move to Vegas, so I'm guessing this is most of his Vegas cash going straight to the coach and there's a damn good chance it won't pay off.

I really hope somebody at the Chiefs had the wherewithal to put all sorts of fake stuff around for Gruden to accidentally see while he was in the stadium this week.

I want him thinking that "Red/Gold Farfegnugen" and "Alfie All Come Free" and "PMIII SUPERBOMBA" are actually things.   I want fake plays being accidentally seen that we'll never run.

I don't think the dude should be allowed in the stadium, but that's just  me.
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#29
I think Mark Davis is actually planning a bit further ahead then next year.  He is looking for an entertainer rather then a X's and O's coach.  With them heading to Vegas I think the commitment to excellence and the Mystique (yes I looked it up how to spell it) of the Raiders is breathing its last.  Got a feeling they are going for the show girl/magic/show on turf type deal.
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#30
(01-05-2018, 03:38 PM)ChiefsChick23 Wrote:
(01-05-2018, 03:25 PM)asskickingboots Wrote: I guess it's official, and the Raiders overpaid the ever-loving shit out of Gruden. Reportedly it's a 10 year, $100 million deal.

https://www.silverandblackpride.com/2018...fl-history

That's just plain dumb. I would be PISSED if I were a Raiders fan.

This is a man the Bucs didn't think could coach anymore years ago, and the Raiders are already in the Vegas mindset letting it all ride on black that he'll be good. Mark Davis wasn't flush with cash before the move to Vegas, so I'm guessing this is most of his Vegas cash going straight to the coach and there's a damn good chance it won't pay off.

I really hope somebody at the Chiefs had the wherewithal to put all sorts of fake stuff around for Gruden to accidentally see while he was in the stadium this week.

I want him thinking that "Red/Gold Farfegnugen" and "Alfie All Come Free" and "PMIII SUPERBOMBA" are actually things.   I want fake plays being accidentally seen that we'll never run.

I don't think the dude should be allowed in the stadium, but that's just  me.

While it'd be hilarious if they did that, I'm not exactly worried about Chuckie getting an inside look. We'll be hella different in 6 months, probably led by an entirely different QB and maybe a whole new OC. Anything we do often enough it'd be an advantage to know probably already shows up in tape.
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